The Long View of 2024

& Why 2020 is Still the Pivot Point of Our Times

By Edith Hathaway © 2024

“There are decades when nothing happens, and there are weeks when decades happen.”   Vladimir Lenin, 1870-1924

We are currently in one of those very intense, accelerated times to which Lenin refers.  But we should not be surprised, considering the power and significance of Dec. 2020 as the pivot point halfway into a 120-year period when the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction cycles predominate in sidereal EARTH signs.  And when a JU-SA conjunction year is that significant astrologically, the 4 to 5 years surrounding it are also highly significant.  Coincidentally, NASA reports that the Solar maximum cycle is nearing its 11-year high in 2024.  It is arriving sooner than expected and will last longer than expected.

Planetary cycles both large and small reflect what is happening, notably the Jupiter-Saturn 20-year conjunction cycles.  A 60-year cycle is important in its own right: Jupiter orbits the Sun 5 times and Saturn twice. Even the Kondratieff economic cycles point to a major shift around the year 2020.

Since 2016, 2020, and 2024 are all election years, notably 2024 – with an unprecedented number of elections across half the world – these too will yield very important clues as to how two major opposing trends of the EARTH cycle will come out of their collision course during these years.  I have been defining these larger trends as Marxist/Globalism versus Nationalist/ Populism.

The Globalist elites aim to weaken and destroy the nation-state. This paves the way for what they call “Global Governance” or  the “New World Order” in which a few unelected bureaucrats decide everything for the world’s population.  By contrast, Nationalists want to preserve the sovereignty of the individual nation-state (including its borders), along with the personal sovereignty of its citizens and their rights and freedoms.  Globalists claim their agenda (Agenda 2030, the latest one) will make everyone safer and more secure. People just have to learn to give up a lot, including personal property rights and in fact most rights and freedoms.

My Original Thesis

The year 2020 is a major turning point in our lifetimes, if not historically.  As we look at the above graph showing the core of the EARTH period, we see that several of the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions are marked with asterisks to designate what I call “Standout Conjunctions.” These are noteworthy conjunctions that will have an especially powerful effect on the subsequent 20 years – or even 60 years if it occurs at the start of the Core cycle, as with the 1961 JU-SA conjunction.

My thesis is that if the JU-SA conjunction at the halfway point of the Core cycle is indeed a Standout Conjunction, then the major ongoing trend of the period tends to be challenged strongly in the 4 to 5 years either side of the conjunction. It is also very likely that the dominant theme will be reversed due to some kind of extreme or excessive events that occur.  Since 2019 and earlier, I have been predicting that the Marxist/Globalist trend will be defeated by the forces of Nationalist/Populism. But in the process major conflict will arise between them.

Globalists, their families and associates have been accumulating enormous wealth and power for over a century. Nor do they intend to surrender it without a huge fight.  We know that 1% of the world’s population possesses almost half of the world’s financial wealth.  The Globalists are in this select group. Their agenda favors depopulation, while also aiming for complete control over the rest of us through their various organizations, such as the United Nations, the World Economic Forum, and the European Union, to name a few.  With their unlimited wealth they can buy off any number of people to promote their goals, which include unlimited mass migration across the world.  Here are some quotes which perfectly encapsulate what happens when you do that.

“The West cannot be conquered through military means. But the West can be conquered through immigration.”    Muammar Gaddafi

“The barbarians never take a city until someone holds the gates open for them.”    Christopher Hitchens        

The Globalists have furthered their agenda by using typical Marxist techniques of indoctrination in the schools, universities, mainstream media (including social media), entertainment and elsewhere to: 1) remove all the fundamental beliefs of religious faith, family and freedom; 2) engender chaos through racist and cultural discord, including transgender ideologies; 3) destroy any pride in the national collective memory and history; and 4) prioritize indoctrination over basic academic skills such as reading, writing, and math.  This is particularly striking in the U.S., with its Constitutional foundations laid specifically by Judeo-Christian beliefs, where back in the 1700s we had 100% literacy (with people reading their Bibles from a young age); but now we have less than 50% literacy and declining every year.  Ironically, in the years closely surrounding 2020 and its strident streams of propaganda, we face chaos and violence that is completely antithetical to what Martin Luther King, Jr. was preaching in the 1960s:

“I have a dream that one day my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”

A white person assassinated King, no doubt targeted as a powerful Civil Rights leader opposing the Vietnam War.  But he was not advocating that white people should be specifically punished, marginalized, censored, removed from the study of history and literature, and forced to pay billions in reparations – since they are white.  (Slavery has existed in many cultures for millennia.)  Nor that black people should receive special privileges and benefits just for being black.

Yet that is what we see and hear from radical Marxist/Globalist activists some 60 years later. They even removed white people completely from some major AI searches on line. So we see the extremes to which the Marxist/Globalists have gone, and the strong response to their actions from citizens waking up to this new reality and revolting against it, much as many (but not all) American colonists revolted against the British Empire nearly 250 years ago.  Fortunately, we had strong and courageous leaders.  Otherwise, we would still be another colony of the British Empire.

Comparing the EARTH Period to FIRE and WATER Periods

Upon examining the Core cycles of the previous FIRE period and the previous WATER period, my thesis is that when the JU-SA conjunction at the halfway point of the Core cycle is not a Standout Conjunction, then the major trends of the period continue mostly unabated. There might be some minor pushback to challenge the dominant trend, but nothing major and certainly nothing that rattles the cages of history in the several years surrounding the halfway point. This is in fact born out in the Core cycles of the previous WATER and FIRE periods, when the JU-SA conjunctions predominate in sidereal WATER signs (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces) or sidereal FIRE signs (Aries, Leo, Sagittarius).

The WATER period ran from 1425 to 1723 (298 years), and encompasses the years of the Mutation periods at either end, when JU-SA conjunctions are mutating from the previous element, or on the backside, mutating to the next element and its dominant cycle.  Within this is the Core WATER period: 1544 to 1702 (158 years), with the halfway point at the 1623 conjunction in Cancer.  The WATER period brought the strength and growth of religion. Empires and monarchies were defined by their religious associations and were closely intertwined.  The most important explorations were by sea voyages, which were undertaken for the glory of the monarchy, but also in most cases to expand Christendom or Islam.

The FIRE period ran from 1723 to 1921 (198 years). The Core FIRE period ran from 1782 to 1901 (119 years), with the halfway point at the 1841 conjunction in Sagittarius.  While also religious, the FIRE influence promoted more overtly nationalistic aspirations and the demand for personal rights and freedoms – especially from religious persecution – and equality among people, at least in theory, if not finally by law.  The FIRE signs have royal associations, but these long-term ties can finally be broken if royalty is experienced as tyrannical. The American colonies broke away from the British Empire by 1783, for example, and in Central and South America 16 nations gained their first sovereignty between 1810 and 1825.

The EARTH period runs from 1921 to 2199 (278 years), while the Core of the EARTH period runs 120 years, from 1961 to 2080.  The Core of the EARTH cycle differs from both the FIRE and WATER periods, in that there is a Standout Conjunction at the halfway point and we are living through it.  My thesis is that since a strong Standout Conjunction does occur at this pivotal juncture in the cycle, it has the power to reverse the steady progression of a trend that has tended to dominate for 60 years.

This is true even if the public is less aware of the trend due to careful propaganda presenting it as a benign or natural sequence of events.  Increasing conflict between a dominant trend and an opposing trend comes as we approach the halfway point of the Core EARTH period with a Standout Conjunction, as previously noted. The more it becomes clear to the public what is happening, the less it can be kept a secret and/or glossed over with propaganda.  Compounded and accelerated by Digital Age technology following the triple JU-SA conjunctions in Virgo (1980-81),  propaganda can flourish especially well in the EARTH period due to less ethics in general in journalism, especially journalism controlled by corporate conglomerates (mainstream media).  For a high enough payout, some scientists, medical doctors and others have apparently manipulated data and promoted lies. With two competing sources of information, the public is then polarized and all too many young students indoctrinated with “settled science.”

So to review, I have identified the major trends of the EARTH period as Marxist/Globalism versus Nationalist/Populism.  Indeed nationalism and the establishment of strong nation-states was a feature of the FIRE period ending in 1901, but it extended into the FIRE to EARTH Mutation period (1901-1961) with triple JU-SA conjunctions in Aries in 1940-1941 and also one anomaly conjunction at 28°52’ Aries in May 2000.  The latter led to more years of wars in the Middle East, starting with the attack on the World Trade Towers in New York City Sept. 11, 2001, thus also suddenly justifying the new Surveillance State and unlimited spying on citizens due to the USA Patriot Act. This large document was signed Oct. 2001.  It finally expired in March 2020 and was not renewed as of Dec. 2020.

But even if freedom of speech is protected by the First Amendment to The U.S. Constitution, we know that mass surveillance and censorship of U.S. citizens has continued unabated, especially if an opinion differs from the official narrative. Fortunately, this topic was further adjudicated at the U.S. Supreme Court on March 18, 2024. The Murthy v. Missouri case is about the Biden administration’s pressuring of Big Tech companies to execute mass censorship of conservatives.

Returning to 1921 and the very first JU-SA conjunction in EARTH on Sept. 9, 1921, we note that a key Globalist organization, the Council on Foreign Relations, was incorporated just six weeks earlier.  The CFR remains highly influential today and includes top U.S. bankers, lawyers, industrialists, academics, and journalists from mainstream media.  The CFR was pivotal in promoting the formation of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in 1947, which uses its media “assets” to set policy and “manufacture consent.” The CFR in turn also engineers policy goals for U.S. administrations, with an internationalist focus, and ironically – as we learn – an ultimate aim to weaken the nation-state and make it subservient to Marxist/ Globalist aims, including the current de-industrialization of the West. This is designed to meet the United Nation’s designated “Climate Change” goals.

Marc Morano, author of Green Fraud, is among many who seriously dispute whether there is any valid science behind this current policy. Upon closer examination, it appears these goals and methods have little to do with saving the environment and much more to do with socialism, redistributing wealth, plus a heavy dose of Identity Politics.

In April 1917, six days after entering World War I, the U.S. Committee on Public Information was established to mobilize public support for the war, as most citizens did not want to enter the war. President Woodrow Wilson called it “a war to end all wars” and “a war to make the world safe for democracy.”  On the CPI staff was Edward Bernays, who later became the “Father of Public Relations.” He said public opinion was dangerous in a democracy and needed to be manipulated without the public being aware of it.  The EARTH period provided fertile ground.

In order to get people to go along with a Globalist program, fear is instilled about some terrible threat.  Morano reminds us that in the 1960s and ’70s they warned us of the dangers of overpopulation. This was followed by global cooling in the 1970s and the coming of a new Ice Age; then global warming in the 1980s, then running out of oil and the threat of losing the ozone layer.  The verbiage was quickly altered if their alarmist statements did not reflect reality.  Unfortunately, the threat of the Covid pandemic in 2020-2021 worked all too well as a test run to manifest many U.N. Agenda 2030 goals and to see how far they could push the parameters to control global populations.  Many people across the world did obey the mandates and lockdowns.  Now Globalists aim for permanent lockdowns. In 2020 they discovered that one way to do it was to declare a Global Emergency.

Two years prior to the first JU-SA conjunction in EARTH (Sept. 1921) was the Treaty of Versailles.  U.S. President Woodrow Wilson played an important role as a political leader chosen by the Globalists of the era to push the U.S. into WWI and to represent their financial and business interests at the Treaty of Versailles. But he failed to get a strong reception for any of his major proposals, including his “Fourteen Points” and a League of Nations, the predecessor to the United Nations. The U.S. Senate voted it down. The John D. Rockefeller family backed both the early and later versions of the U.N., later donating land in New York City to the U.N.  As David Rockefeller said in his Memoirs, 2003:

“…[T]he world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supernational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries.”

Returning to 1961, we note that the Inauguration of U.S. President John F. Kennedy on Jan. 20, 1961 occurred exactly one month before the 1961 JU-SA conjunction, indicating that his presidency would be seminal in some way to the subsequent 60-year period. And indeed, his assassination on Nov. 22, 1963 was seminal to the 60-year period from 1961. It probably single-handedly announced the opposition trend to the nation-state.  Even outgoing President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned of an out-of-control “military-industrial complex” in his Farewell Address Jan. 19, 1961. “The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist,” he said, in a speech he had wanted to make for over two years. But it had lasting significance when he delivered it on Jan. 19, 1961. JFK was murdered a few years later, perhaps for not supporting that very same military-industrial complex.

“We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it.  The question is only whether the World Government will be achieved by consent or by conquest.”   James Warburg (son of Paul Warburg, key architect of the U.S. Federal Reserve), in his testimony to the U.S. Subcommittee on Revision of the United Nations Charter, 1950.

The leader of a powerful nation-state had to be “selected” by the Globalist elite, especially to conform to the Globalist agenda – which appears to involve many endless wars and the weakening or destruction of nation-states. Wars are very lucrative for them.  In this way President Donald Trump was and still is a thorn in their side.  CIA operatives have been seriously implicated as the killers of JFK, but the matter has been kept well hidden from the public for over 60 years. President Trump had promised to release the JFK assassination documents during his presidency, but has since confided in at least one legal authority that he was so concerned about the public response to what he had seen that he decided in the end not to release the documents.

Review of the Astrological Premises of the EARTH Period

During the EARTH period, when the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction cycles dominate in EARTH signs (Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn) as seen in the sidereal zodiac, the focus is on the consolidation of resources, material security, and leaders of industry and banking. These leaders have maximum opportunity to consolidate their power during these years, with the ability to become even stronger and wealthier than individual nation-states, often using their power and wealth to influence politicians in nation-states.

The astrological reason for this is that Saturn is stronger in EARTH signs and Jupiter is weaker. Not only that, but the key JU-SA conjunctions in 1961, 2020, and 2080 are all in Capricorn, and the one in 1961 has particular power over the next 60 years, being Vargottama – in the first 3°20’ of Capricorn, and repeating in all the key Vedic divisional, or sub-charts.  Further, Saturn has increased power in its own sign of Capricorn and is King of Business and Banking in this sign. (Saturn also rules Aquarius, but the emphasis shifts to idealism, not commerce.)

By contrast, Jupiter is not only debilitated in Capricorn but is diminished in its ability to support arenas of life over which it classically rules: education, law, religion, publishing and ethics.  Jupiter is closely associated with knowledge, the grace of God, wisdom, philosophy, wealth, abundance, and children. (Jupiter rules Sagittarius and Pisces.)  In ancient Vedic culture, knowledge was considered wealth, but even this can be perverted in an EARTH period when people with significant knowledge in a given field gain financial wealth through compromise, allowing themselves to be used as mouthpieces for moneyed interests, willingly sabotaging what they know to be true or false.

In the worldly sphere, Saturn rules over secular and business interests, while Jupiter rules over the sacred, educative, and cultural interests that make society more cohesive through legal, spiritual and moral obligations.  With Saturn having inordinate power over Jupiter in the EARTH period,  especially up to 2020, the result is that corruption ensues when not only politicians are corrupted by bribes – but also educators, medical doctors, scientists, judges, churches and church leaders.  If a law is viewed as an impediment, the perverted attitude is that any law can get broken with ease (and arrogance).  The social fabric then unravels quickly through crime, chaos and lack of trust in leaders across the board.  Needless to say, a more sacred view of life (Jupiter) has been replaced by a more secular view (Saturn).  So this is also a spiritual battle, because if human life is not valued or viewed as sacred, ethical standards decline rapidly.

In summary, in the EARTH period the danger is that anyone can be bought – at the right price, including climate scientists and medical doctors.  Another result is that there is an unprecedented amount of drug trafficking and human sex trafficking of women and children across the world.  The latter has proven to be even more lucrative than the multi-billion dollar trafficking of illegal drugs.   Overall with this view, human life is seen as essentially dispensable.

The Dec. 2020 Jupiter-Saturn Conjunction

A brief review of how to read a South Indian chart.

Apropos the 2020 JU-SA conjunction, the central question of my original thesis is whether there can be a shift of trend halfway through the Core period of a particular element.  And if so, that major change in trend should manifest in the years closely surrounding the JU-SA conjunction of Dec. 2020. (For a brief review of this topic, please see the next and last section: 2015 to 2025: the Pivotal Years Surrounding the 2020 JU-SA Conjunction.)

This conjunction has more power to indicate a trend shift because it is not only a Standout conjunction, occurring exactly 7 ½ hours after the Winter Solstice in the Northern Hemisphere, but it occurs in a segment of Capricorn that is no longer Vargottama, i.e. the first 3°20’ of Capricorn (as in the 1961 JU-SA conjunction), thus repeating in various sub-charts and getting re-emphasized, for better or worse, worse in this case for Jupiter, being debilitated in Capricorn, thus adversely affecting the realms of life over which Jupiter rules (See the previous section: Review of the Astrological Premises of the EARTH Period.) .

In the chart above, the 2020 JU-SA conjunction occurs at 6°20’ Capricorn, which is the 2nd Navamsha of Capricorn. (A Navamsha is a  9th division, or harmonic. It refers to the 3°20’ segment of each sign, with 9 navamshas in each sign.)  The 2nd Navamsha of Capricorn moves to Aquarius, which is more idealistic and philosophically oriented, though still owned by Saturn. But more importantly,  Jupiter is no longer debilitated, as it is in Capricorn.  Thus it is less vanquished by the Saturn Graha Yuddha (Planetary War), in which Saturn typically wins over Jupiter, but which is even more devastating when Jupiter is also debilitated, as in Capricorn.  (See my article on Graha Yuddha.)

My thesis is that the major themes of the EARTH period can be severely tested at this halfway point and one of them potentially overturned, especially if it threatens to cause complete chaos and ruination. Several factors are at play here, in that most of the world’s population were not fully aware of what the Globalists had in store for them until March 11, 2020, when the WHO declared a Global Emergency due to the Covid Pandemic.  All of the usual rights and liberties enjoyed in democratic nations were suspended, as well as in Communist nations.

From the Marxist/Globalist point of view of course this is not seen as ruination, because their goal is indeed a centralized authoritarian world ruled by a few elite bankers and industrialists. A Global Emergency helped them to steal the Nov. 2020 Presidential Election from Trump and get on a fast track towards a completion of their United Nations goals. These goals were originally planned for completion in 2020, and named Agenda 21.  Depopulation and Soviet-style dehumanization are realities for this plan, aided by Transhumanism and AI technology. All of this is thinly veiled behind Marxist utopian scenarios telling us: “You will own nothing and you will be happy.”

Astrologically this gives yet another important link to 2020, because it was at the United Nation’s Earth Summit in Brazil in June 1992 that the precursor to Agenda 2030 was first signed, called Agenda 21. This was a Saturn orbital cycle (28-29 years), with 2020 as the target year for completion of their goals.  Since Saturn is a planet of Truth and Reality, the individual or the collective discovers at the Saturn return whether their goals have been realistic or appropriate.

The U.N. refers to “more than 178 governments” who signed on for Agenda 21 at the Earth summit, including U.S. President George H.W. Bush.  From this we are reminded that all U.S. Presidents from George H.W. Bush onward were Globalists, whether Democrat or Republican. To be otherwise was apparently not acceptable. Then in 2015 along came Donald J. Trump, a Nationalist non-Establishment GOP candidate who upset their plans and caused a real setback in their goals to create this Marxist/Globalist world of Malthusian scarcity and dystopia.  He created an unprecedented era of peace and prosperity in his first three years until Covid hit.

It is arresting that at 6°20’ Capricorn, the 2020 JU-SA conjunction falls within half a degree from the USA chart natal Pluto at 6°49’ Capricorn. Further, transiting Pluto re-entered sidereal Capricorn on Dec. 30, 2020 for the first time since Jan. 16, 1792 (228 years). This Pluto is situated in the 2nd house of financial income in the USA (Kelleher) chart, and correlates to deep-seated changes in that arena of life in the U.S., which is also under threat in terms of the US dollar being devalued. The Biden administration has made many risky moves which threaten the US Dollar’s continued status as the world reserve currency.  In response, many central banks have been buying physical gold and silver at a rapid rate, especially gold.

Pluto is associated with radical transformation and wealth, especially mineral wealth. Also, in Greek mythology Pluto was a thief. He abducted Persephone and took her to live with him in the Underworld, over which he ruled. Persephone’s mother Demeter ruled over fertility and agriculture and caused the earth to be blighted during the months she lived in the Underworld with Pluto.

How this correlates to U.S. financial well-being should be seen very shortly, especially as early as May 2, 2024, when tr. Jupiter enters sidereal Taurus (thru May 15, 2025).  Due to the Ashtakavarga rankings of Jupiter in Taurus and Saturn in Aquarius, these are highly unfavorable positions specifically for the U.S. Federal Reserve. Tr. Saturn is in Aquarius Jan. 17, 2023 to March 30, 2025. The months when both tr. Jupiter and Saturn are unfavorable for the Federal Reserve indicate that the U.S. has some potentially major financial issues. This coincides with when both major U.S. political parties will be nominating their candidates and the final months surrounding the 2024 election and Inauguration. The U.S. national debt is out of control, and in a presidential election year there is usually no plan to get it under control.

Some people think the Pluto return to the USA chart could refer to the U.S. government’s plan to introduce a central digital currency.  This may also be related to some major negative transits to the chart of the Federal Reserve (by Ashtakavarga analysis) which could result in a major crisis for the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank.  At the same time, there is a Total Solar eclipse on April 8, 2024 at 25°12’ Pisces (also the Vedic New Year chart). This falls on the 26°57’ Pisces Ascendant of the United Nations chart (Oct. 24, 1945, 16:45, Washington, D.C.) and opposite the USA Saturn in the 10th house at 24°04’ Virgo. Neither of these are good indications for the current U.S. president or the U.N.

The United Nations is worth mentioning here since this organization is so central to all the Globalists’ endeavors, especially apropos the unlimited mass migration policy which has led to an unprecedented invasion of the U.S., if not also of most of Europe. For them to succeed, the public needs to remain blind to the poverty, enslavement, and depopulation they have planned for most of the planet.  But many Americans seem to be finally awakening to the hell-bent but needless dystopia of the Globalist agenda.

2015 to 2025: the Pivotal Years

Surrounding the 2020 JU-SA Conjunction

As we look at 2015-2016, there are a few key political events that set the stage prior to Dec. 2020: 1) the United Nations Global Compact on Migration in 2015, strongly supported by the German and U.S. leaders at the time and finalized in 2018; 2) the UK vote for Brexit in June 2016; and 3) the election of U.S. President Donald Trump in Nov. 2016. Trump did not sign the Global Compact on Migration during his Presidency (2017-2021), but Joe Biden did sign it in 2021. He got the U.S. back into the whole program of unlimited mass immigration, working together with the U.N. while telling the American public the border was secure.

Item #1 was intended to normalize and accelerate the process of globalization and unlimited mass migration across the world and did so.  In Sept. 2015 that intention gained further overt U.S. support when President Obama signed on to the U.N.’s Agenda 2030.

By contrast, Items # 2 and #3 indicated major populist resistance to Globalism, with many people unwilling to surrender their rights and freedoms as citizens of individual nation-states to a few unelected bureaucrats, either in the European Union or at the United Nations.  The intense polarization of the public from 2015 onward occurred from the time Donald Trump declared his candidacy for the U.S. Presidency.  He fought off 16 other major candidates, won the nomination and ultimately the General Election.

The Globalists declared war on him from the time he and Melania Trump came down the escalator at Trump Tower in NYC to announce his candidacy.  The Obama administration spied on him all through his candidacy, his months as President-Elect, and well into his presidency.  From then on to the present, all manner of legalities were broken and never punished to go after the one avowedly pro-Nationalist, anti-Globalist candidate for U.S. President, along with his top advisors and supporters. The criminality of the lawfare we see pitted against them shows the utter desperation and corruption the Globalists and their allies have as they realize that Trump is favored to win in 2024 and they cannot cheat as easily as they did last time.

It is clear that the upcoming U.S. Presidential election is about a Marxist/Globalist candidate versus a Nationalist/Populist candidate.  The former will have all the wealth at his disposal, but the latter has the support of more people and the determination to overcome the cheating (his opposition perhaps using illegal immigrants as voters) and the tyrannical propaganda and censorship this time around.  Compared to the American Revolution of 1775, this is a war of major proportions.  The Globalists do not intend to lose, even with a puppet candidate.  But neither do the Nationalists.


Please also see my article:  The 2024 U.S. Presidential Election  and my interview for Amata Giovale’s  Youtube channel, released March 23, 2024. (My host is interpreter Ana Valentina Lanza.)

 Copyright © 2024 by Edith Hathaway. All rights reserved.